Beyond Titles with Kendra Johnson

All right, Sarah, thank you so much for taking the time and joining me today.

Really excited to learn from you.

You have quite the unique journey from years ago to now, and that includes a hat trick of
successful acquisitions.

So wondering if you can give us a little bit of an intro as to who you are, but also walk
us through some of that timeline, because I think you are very unique in your journey and

you have a lot of experience that you can share.

Yeah, thanks for having me, Kendra.

I'm happy to be here today and happy to talk through my sort of acquisition hat trick.

I like the way you put that.

My husband's a big hockey fan, so he's going to like that too.

So I've built my career in B2B marketing for startup SaaS companies.

I wouldn't say that I did that on purpose to start, but now it's on purpose, right?

And I think as far as

the sort of hat trick is concerned, it actually started by chance.

ended up having, well, my very first marketing job was hand addressing envelopes for
direct mail campaigns, which I had part time while I was still in college.

And through that, though, I made a contact there that led me to my first role at a company
called DataLogix, which was later acquired by Oracle.

that's where I really got to cut my teeth.

I would say I worked for incredible marketing leaders, know, former, heavy hitters at
digitas, you know, agency marketers, really strong backgrounds who taught me what it meant

to really build a brand, care about a brand, establish a brand.

and you know, getting into the like nitty gritty details of brand building, how important
it is to.

understand how visuals make people feel, things like that, right?

Just all of the things that we know as consumers, but we can't really pick out.

I kind of got to learn the tricks of that trade and was the first full-time marketer at
that stage of the company and was a part of it growing to a billion plus dollar

acquisition.

I didn't know that was the ride I was getting on, but my gosh, am I grateful that I got on
it.

I just, learned so much about what it meant to be in a high growth startup.

And I went from being a marketing coordinator to being a senior marketing manager at that
company in my five years there.

So, you know, at that part of our career, we tend to get promotions more frequently, level
up more frequently.

But because it was a startup, I still had a direct line into the CMO there, which is just,
I think, part of what makes my experience so unique.

And it's what makes being in startups unique.

And I got hungry for that.

That was so exciting and so much fun.

And it was a very fast-paced learning experience, thrown in head first in many ways, very
much a we're all going to figure it out as we go.

And that led me to, I think, building a certain level of confidence that put me in the
position to say, let me go find the next one.

And so after that success, I moved into another startup in a completely different space.

DataLogic served the space of advertising, marketing, technology.

We sold to marketers.

That was our main audience.

And then I moved into the insurance space.

And I worked for a company.

building a geospatial insurance analytics platform, which is new language, completely new
ideas.

It couldn't have been further away from what I was doing.

And it was a completely different setup for the company.

It didn't have a bunch of investors and venture capital.

It was a bootstrapped organization, which was a completely different culture, different
goals, different

timing, different pace.

And I came in with marketing chops.

I came in at a director level there.

And I was their first very focused full-time marketing leader.

And I didn't know anything about the insurance space, though, which was quite fascinating
because I came in maybe a little too big for my britches in some ways, which is probably.

that.

Not surprising from the environment I came from, we all had to be big in the data logics
environment.

We were doing really big things and pushing things forward so fast.

And so it was a bit of a culture shock in a really good way, though, I would say.

And at that company, what I learned, I brought all of my brand building experience.

But what I learned there is how important it is to market.

differently to a highly analytical audience.

So the property and casualty insurance business, you know, we were marketing to people who
are underwriting insurance policies and they are a highly analytical group.

They are the ones who are responsible for earning money for an insurance company.

Whereas like a claims department and an insurance company is where the losses occur.

Right.

And so when you're selling anything that helps people underwrite,

you're going to get a lot of scrutiny.

And in the insurance space, they're not moving fast.

They're going to wait and see what someone else is doing.

Being an innovator isn't the thing to be.

Whereas in the marketing and advertising space, being an innovator is the thing to be.

You want to be the one who's two steps ahead, five steps ahead, 10 steps ahead.

In insurance, they hedge their bets.

They're careful.

And so that was a big learning experience for me.

in building that brand and being a part of building the go-to-market strategy and planning
for that space, it was completely different.

But what I learned was that to be successful in marketing, we just have to bring a certain
skill set to the table about what it means to bring things to market.

And I learned that I don't have to be a specialist in any one industry.

to be able to build a brand for that industry.

What I have to bring is curiosity.

I have to bring humility.

I have to ask a ton of questions.

I have to be willing to be wrong.

And I have to be willing to be told what's right by somebody else.

And I kind of came in thinking I needed to have all the answers.

And I think that happens for everybody in their careers.

And I think when I was at my second startup, it was called Spatial Key.

When I was there, I really learned what it meant to kind of sit back and let people teach
me in a different way and realized that that would feed my success.

So that one was successfully acquired as well.

And then after that, I moved to another startup that was building software for the
compliance space and kind of helping compliance leaders make sure that employees weren't

writing

anything in their emails that would be particularly damaging in any sort of legal
discovery.

So really trying to make sure people adhere to certain communications policies and
ensuring that employees knew what those policies were, trying to use technology to move

that forward.

And then it was also a digital archiving system, which most...

large companies, particularly in the financial space, insurance space, any space that's
heavily regulated, they do have to digitally archive a lot of their communications for a

certain period of time.

And so that's what this company provided.

This was the smallest startup I'd ever joined.

I joined that one as their VP of marketing.

So I moved from a director level to a VP level in that move.

And that was a big learning experience for me because it wasn't totally pre-revenue, but
nearly pre-revenue.

So I kind of went from a well-established startup with DataLogix that had the funding, it
had the big C-suite, it had the board of investors, everybody ready to go.

And it was during the time when unicorns were kind of popping up as a big deal, right?

It was like that perfect time in like the 2010s, 2010s where Silicon Valley was booming
and all of that was happening.

And then I kind of like took different steps away from that sort of big startup space into
Bootstrap and then into not fully pre-revenue, but still pretty early on.

And with that third one, I learned a lot about the value of

product market fit.

So I had the benefit of the previous two startups.

The product that I was marketing had a fit.

We knew it.

We had an audience.

We had buyers.

It was there.

The third startup that I was at didn't totally have that.

And it was a really good learning experience for me in my marketing career to recognize
that it doesn't really matter what

skills you bring to the table, how good your messaging is, how good your design is, how in
tune to the audience that you're trying to reach you are.

If your product doesn't fit, it doesn't fit.

There's no making it fit.

That was a really telling moment for me.

That was a big one because I had been successful with all of my...

approaches in the past.

And with this one, we ended up having to swing really far and really deep, deeply dig into
the digital archiving product, which wasn't the thing that was the most exciting.

And it didn't seem to be the thing that was going to actually propel the company to
success.

But it was.

Our digital archive worked faster than others.

It was easier to use than others.

And it was just these little small things that differentiated it.

And that's what created success.

And we were able to successfully move that company to acquisition as well.

So that was like the pivot lesson, right?

When you don't know really where your product fits, but you have one that does, but didn't
seem as exciting or intriguing, it was a good lesson that sometimes small changes to

something necessary and basic are enough to propel success.

For sure, and I mean, sometimes unsexy cells, if it's functional, right?

Yeah.

Usually that's the case, right?

We need what we need.

yeah, which is funny because I mean, for anybody that has either studied marketing at a
very high level or thinks about marketing, you think like it has to be exciting and flashy

and you know, it's gotta be this sexy thing and at the end of the day it's like, is it
functional?

And to your point, do I need it?

Then yeah, you're gonna have best results that way.

So that's really interesting lesson.

Yeah.

I like that.

I have some questions about each of those three, but before we get there, talk to me a
little bit about where you are now and what that looks like and the difference between the

previous three and now.

Yeah, absolutely.

So now I'm at a company called Respondology.

And what Respondology does is exciting.

And it is very interesting.

And it's also necessary.

So it's like that beautiful trifecta, right?

That's what we want to see.

Respondology is a comment activation platform that helps marketers moderate comments on
social media in milliseconds, like through an automatic system that's powered by

key phrases in business rules, generative AI, and also some human moderation.

And then it also provides comment intelligence, which if you think about tools like social
listening tools that kind of listen across the entire internet, our product digs deep into

the comment section.

So instead of going broad, it goes very deep.

And it will help marketers understand what people are saying in the comment sections.

It surfaces topics that are happening in there.

It surfaces sentiment around those topics.

And it does it in less than 30 seconds across all.

Like it will feed in comments from all different social media platforms that brands are
participating on.

And we work with sports teams and leagues as well.

So it is this incredibly powerful tool for social media that removes hate, removes
toxicity, makes these social media communities wonderful places to be a part of.

while also giving marketers really excellent opportunities to understand how the comments
are impacting their business and to understand how to use comments to create strategies

and things like that, communicate with product, give them feedback, et cetera.

So it's exciting.

This is a very, very cool product, one that I'm privileged to work on in many.

days I'm honored to work on it because we are making an impact on how social media feels
for society.

And so that's where I am today.

I am the vice president of marketing there.

So I am on their executive team.

And this one is a little bit like data logics in that we are in this very exciting space.

We are marketing to marketers.

And it is centered on social media, which is something that we know is so integral to our
society and our behavior now, not just from a marketing perspective, but just as human

beings.

Absolutely, I love that and especially with I mean not just for brands but personal
branding on the rise and reputation management.

I mean whether you're big small organization or individual I think more and more people
are starting to consider what does that what does our branding look like?

What's our reputation management online?

And I actually had this conversation the other day that somebody was saying I don't want
to start a personal brand because I don't want to have to worry about trolling or I don't

know

You know, it's become social media can be such an unnecessarily rude place, but it doesn't
have to be, which is why I love what you're doing.

And the mission that respondology is on is to make it a better place and make it an
environment that actually uplifts rather than then tears down.

And knowing you can do that in less than 30 seconds, it's like, why not work smarter
rather than harder?

That's

Brilliant, brilliant, brilliant.

So I love all of your backstory.

I love the journey you've been on.

Clearly a ton of lessons, so I'm really excited to dive into those.

And one thing that really jumped out to me when you were saying the pace of work.

the second company was different than the first.

And I think that's something that's often overlooked, especially for leaders that have had
a bump in title, they're going to a new role.

And to your point, you show up expecting to have all the answers or thinking that you
should have all the answers, I should say.

And in doing that, sometimes pace of work is not always considered.

So you're there trying to push something forward and...

the environment saying like, that's not how we operate here.

So I just really want to highlight that lesson.

And then I'd love to ask you, know, Sarah at each stage at company one, company two, and
company three, if you could go back and say in each of these startup environments, here is

the soft skill to learn or here's the communication skill to learn.

What would you say would be kind of those top three as you moved through those
organizations?

Yeah, so I think early in my career, I really needed to listen.

Like, I needed to stop and listen.

I am a very hypervigilant individual.

I am looking around corners constantly trying to stay 10 steps ahead of what's next.

And then after that, like, it's pretty intense.

I can be intense that way.

And I felt a lot of that early in my career when I was at Datalogics.

I was working with leaders who were so deeply experienced and expert in their spaces.

And so I felt the constant need to meet that.

But I was in the early stages of my career.

So there was no way for me to meet that.

And if I could go back and do that differently, I would be looking at it as, it's good for
you to try and keep up with these people around you because you're leveling up.

It's like the, what is that saying?

all tides, raised boats, or something.

I'm not saying it correctly.

A rising tide?

Yes, thank you.

There you go.

If only I could say it correctly.

But that is true, right?

And I didn't totally realize that early in my career.

I felt like I had to know what everybody else knew.

And instead, what I needed to do was sit back and listen and let the experts teach me.

I don't think anybody expected me to have the answers.

What they expected of me was to figure things out.

They wanted to see that curiosity, that interest, and that action, which I also brought to
the table.

But I brought such a level of intensity that I think was a diss.

I was doing a disservice to myself, thinking that I had to be at a certain level that I
just was never going to be able to be at because I had so much to learn.

So I needed to really develop, maybe it wasn't the skill of listening so much as it was
having the skill to ask questions without feeling like my questions made me look stupid or

incapable.

And I don't know that there's a single word for that, but I was always very hesitant to
show that I didn't know what to do.

And if I'd shown that more, I probably would have grown faster, even though I was growing
quite quickly.

Yeah.

but with less fear.

And I think that that would have been really valuable.

I think when I was at Spatial Key, I needed to learn the soft skill of slowing down.

Like, I really needed to learn that.

I was moving so fast, and I was just, I was like electricity, just like sparking
constantly.

And the people that I was around, they were so good at what they did.

They knew that industry so, well.

They were really calm about it.

And I think that that calmness comes with experience.

think that calm and kind of confident go together sometimes.

And when I came in there, I put a huge amount of pressure on myself to prove myself
because I really wanted to level up in my leadership.

That was important to me.

But I needed to sit down.

Like I needed to take a step back and let it be okay that things took time.

Let it be okay that I needed to take like serious time to learn about my new audience.

That wasn't a privilege that I had at DataLogix though.

That wasn't the environment.

We didn't have time to take time.

We were moving at the speed of light due to the nature of the

business plan, what that place wanted to do.

At Spatial Key, we had big goals and we were very ambitious, but it wasn't as fast paced
of an environment.

And when I had to slow down in the beginning, that felt like failure to me.

And what I realized over time is that that's just what's necessary to grow at that point
in my career.

So.

really taking a step back, taking a lay of the land, letting it be OK that things take
more time, and also learning that strategy takes time.

And that was a new part of my role there.

Moving from an individual contributor role to a leadership role, that strategy piece does
change.

strategy isn't something that you do as a checklist item.

Certainly not.

was a big learning moment for me.

Yes, my gosh.

Moving into a VP role, that's when I started interacting with board of directors.

And I learned there that it was really important for me to come with a point of view.

So having a strong point of view that was my own mattered.

And I started that out thinking,

I'll just share the point of view that the CEO brings to the table or that the chief
product officer brings to the table.

And it's like, no, know what those are, but then how, where does mine fit and how might it
differ and bringing, some courage to that, I think was really important.

I don't think people talk enough about courage as a soft skill.

Yeah.

talk a lot about confidence.

Confidence is built by doing things over and over again.

You can't have that when you're doing something for the first time.

You need to have courage and bravery for the first time.

And that's the skill that I really started to build when I entered my first VP role, is I
really dug deep into my courage.

And the other thing that I did when I entered that VP role is I did get a coach.

I did get an executive coach, and that made a big difference.

That helped me a lot.

Yes, and that's.

where I am today, I would say all of that is building.

But now, where I am today, what I'm learning a lot about is delegation.

Yeah.

I have, well, I've been, you know, I'm always on small teams because I'm in startups.

So startup marketing teams are not huge.

There are times where for quite some time I've been

a team of one before I've been able to hire.

And so for me, I'm just so used to being like, I gotta get it done, I gotta get it done, I
gotta get it done.

And I'm moving back and forth between contributor strategy, contributor strategy.

And here I do have a team of really, really smart and capable individuals, not a big team.

I have two employees and I'm on my path to getting a third team member very soon.

And I still find myself in situations where I'm like, OK, guys, I'll do this and this and
this.

And they're like, hey, we're here.

And I love that.

But I'm realizing that delegation is important on so many levels.

It's important because I can't do all the work, nor should I.

I have a team of people.

But also, what is becoming so clear to me is that it's important for other people's career
growth.

Like if I didn't have leaders early in my career that knew how to delegate, I wouldn't
have learned anything.

And it's so obvious when I say it out loud, but you know, when you're in the thick of
something and you're trying to get things done quickly, and you're trying to get too much

done, you know, I over subscribe myself all the time.

It's hard to remember like, I can actually tap on that person for help.

And

Outside of delegation, think the larger theme here is asking for help, turning to my peers
and asking for help.

I have such an incredible leadership team that I'm a part of.

People here are so, so, so smart and dedicated, and all of us are aligned on our mission
at Respondology.

And I can ask anybody for help, but I am not excellent at that, and it is definitely
something that I'm learning.

Yes.

my gosh.

So I just want to also kind of umbrella your journey there and all of your lessons,
because I think one common theme that really stood out to me is your adaptability, your

agility to be able to change, and then your ability to self-reflect.

And I think those are the makings of in every single position you've talked about.

Here's what I learned.

Here's maybe what I could have done to learn something quicker.

However,

in that moment, here's how this played out and here's how this shifted and helped me with
my next opportunity.

So I think those are also two very underrated and underestimated skills that you have
showcased throughout your journey.

It's just, okay, I'm in a new environment, I know I need to slow down and I need to take a
second and then I need to respond in a way that my environment is kind of dictating for

success with the intention always being there.

which is fabulous and something that most people don't have to be perfectly honest.

I really think, you when you said in the first role you were in.

you felt like you needed to have all the answers and the fear of asking questions was, you
know, one of those points of friction and I hear that all the time and honestly felt that

feeling in my stomach of, you know, young Kendra being like, yeah, I don't want to ask
because I don't want to appear like I don't know what I want to do or I don't know what

I'm doing, I should say.

So.

For our audience, are likely the majority of them in that mid-level leadership role,
they're looking to carve out a path much like yourself and to work up to whether it's a

more responsibility, a larger title, perhaps start their own initiative, whatever that
means.

They're not only looking to figure out the way to ask the best questions, but I think many
of them, from what I've heard, are struggling with the demands of that stepping into that

strategic role and also managing the hands-on tasks that do require you to ultimately use
two sides of your brain or both sides of your brain and to flip-flop between two different

speeds.

So for yourself in thinking whether that's now or, you know, some of the tips and skills
that you've learned around that.

How do you navigate that and how did you navigate the balance between strategy and between
being an individual contributor and getting the work done?

So I mean, I'll be really honest, really poorly at first.

And poorly for me, I think that on the outside, I probably looked really put together
because that's just part of what I do.

think that is, I don't know how many people are familiar with the Enneagram.

I think it's quite popular.

I'm tied between an Enneagram one and six.

We had a little bit of an Enneagram training last year.

And they.

The person who came in to walk us through it had these great slides where they had an
animal, like a photograph of an animal representing each of the numbers.

And Enneagram 1 was a swan because they're paddling like crazy to keep themselves above
water, but then they're so graceful, right?

They look fine.

That resonated a lot with me because I think that's exactly what I am in what you just
described.

I look fine.

But then underneath, I am fighting for my life in some ways, particularly early on, much
less now in some cases.

But still, it happens.

And for me, was a lot of I learn through observation.

And so I will watch the people around me that I admire.

And I can't say enough how lucky I am to have worked with a lot of people that I admire.

And I recognize that that might not be everybody's experience.

And so even if you find yourself in a situation where you might not be working with people
that you admire, but perhaps there are people that you admire outside of your work, tap

into that too.

But I found myself observing the people that I deemed most successful.

And I talked to them.

I asked them.

I asked how they did it.

I would go to coffee and I would just be like, how did you get to this point in your
career?

How can you be so calm when things change so fast?

How do you go from having to speak to a board of directors to teaching me how to write an
email subject line effectively?

How do you do that?

Aren't you annoyed?

I'm annoyed.

And I would just be very honest.

And I would get a lot of good advice.

Some people that I've worked with have been really good about time blocking themselves and
being able to say, OK, this is the time for strategy.

This is the time for individual contributor work.

I've tried to do that.

I'm not great at that because meetings pop up.

Slack is a thing.

Maybe back then it might not have been as big, but now it's huge.

The interruptions are just big and real.

So typically what it is for me is right now in my current role, I have to switch between,
I'm writing a lot of copy for my company right now while also preparing board decks that I

have to present.

Those are two very different parts of my brain.

And what I find myself doing is figuring out how they connect.

And so so much of the work that I have to do that feels like individual contributor work
does connect to the broader strategy of the organization, or else it's work that shouldn't

be done.

And so for me, I do find myself often thinking, I just spent so much time writing this
copy for this deck or this website page.

How would I talk to our board of directors about that?

Is there a messaging strategy in there that I can discuss?

Is there a positioning strategy in there that I can discuss?

And then can I use this individual piece of work to show how that's coming to life?

And so that's how I manage it now.

In the beginning, I managed it horribly.

And I would just move toward the individual contributor stuff because it's checkbox work.

And checkbox work feels good.

There's a beginning and an end to it, right?

There's something to be said about that.

But transitioning into leadership roles where you're a people manager, you're putting
together a strategy, and you're also still having to do some checkbox work, I think it's

really important for those things to combine as often as they can.

And frankly, if you love the part of your job that

is more of the individual contributor stuff, it is the checkbox work, do it.

Carve out time for it because it's gonna make you feel good.

And I think that that's really important because the strategy work, I'll say, it doesn't
always feel productive.

It doesn't always feel like there's a conclusion.

And so sometimes it can be a little bit disarming.

where you just are like, what did I do today?

How did I contribute?

And so I think for me, that's just kind of the path I take.

I absolutely agree.

And you know, there are some people who are, who find that that checkbox work and we have
a proprietary assessment that we use and it literally analyzes your collaborative and your

working styles to talk about, you know, what gives you the most energy, what takes your
energy away and where do you really excel?

And for some people that is in the strategy side and they're looking at that big picture
and that excites them, that gives them that energy, but maybe they don't have the

opportunity to do as much of that.

that exhausts them quicker.

whereas others are maintainers and they love that checkbox work, they're great at
processes, they're great at detail and detail oriented, which is, I mean, I'm not one of

those people, so I always applaud them and surround myself with those people because I'll
say like, I'm flying up here and I'm looking at start and end and I need people to tell me

how are we going to do that or, you know, at least pick apart some of the...

the bigger ideas that I have to look at the feasibility.

So not only in understanding what helps you or to your point, carving out the time for
those things, but also look at who within your organization can support you with the other

things so that you can at least bounce ideas off of them or create the full picture
collaboratively.

Yeah, absolutely.

And I think you're bringing up something really important, which is knowing what you're
great at so that you can hire for what you're not great at.

And this is what makes excellent CEOs, right?

They really know how to build great teams around themselves.

But then it also is what makes any of us excellent in a leadership role.

I have found that it is so much more important for me to own what I cannot do.

than it is for me to own what I can do.

Because that's easy.

It's owning what you can't do that tends to be the bigger challenge, at least for an
achiever like me who wants to prove that I'm like the greatest ever.

Like that A student mentality.

And you're bringing up something so important.

Like what you just described is something that I used to do.

I've done some coaching myself with clients.

I used to do the zone of genius exercise, and it sounds quite similar, where you find
where you excel and where you don't.

And then you balance your day as much as you can for that.

Balancing your day for that when you're employed full time by another company that you
don't have total control over all of your time can be a bit more of a challenge, but it's

still possible.

Yeah, it is still possible.

then I think one of the

One of the things that's overlooked a lot is the resources we have available internally.

And I don't, I don't, when I say resources, I don't mean people.

but I do mean like the, you know, do we have an internal Wiki?

Do we have automations that I'm not using?

What are the tools?

Am I using those to their full capabilities?

But then when we look at our collaborative relationships within an organization as well,
there's a lot of those that are being underutilized.

Who can you talk to?

Who can you go get coffee with?

Like you said, and you know, you, you described that exact situation where you.

what had coffee and pick people's brain to understand how they do what you would like to
do in the future.

And I think that's something that whether it's because people don't want to be a burden or
there's fear around it or they haven't dug into their courage, as you've said, right?

Those are all things that we have control over and we can absolutely do in order to
elevate our skills and elevate our position ultimately.

And that leads me to another question that I have for you, which I think is really
fascinating given the fact that you in your current role, we'll zoom back to present day,

your current role, you are collaborating with your team members, obviously your peers on
the leadership team, and then also to a degree with the board of directors because they

have expectations of you, you have to deliver and vice versa.

How do you?

cultivate those internal relationships, especially when, as you've mentioned, you bring,
they're counting on you to bring your own point of view, which might not always align with

everybody else's.

So how do you navigate, you know, maintaining those internal relationships, especially
when others might have very heated opinions?

I just know that there some who have different priorities, you know, and that's something
that they're steadfast on.

And how do you foster that collaboration to make it as smooth as possible to be able to
have those productive conversations?

Yeah, that's an excellent question.

So for me, I'm really dedicated to being honest.

And I think that that is something that has actually been, it feels a bit like a rebellion
sometimes in certain scenarios in business, to be just really straightforward and honest.

I am a challenging person by nature.

Like, I'm not afraid to challenge a situation.

But for me, the key is to understand it fully first.

So I tend to be pretty quiet in the beginning and I just absorb.

I pay attention to what people are saying.

I really make an effort to assess communication styles.

And I do think that there's an element of mimicry that can be quite

effective in building relationships and establishing communication.

The whole meeting people where they are cliche, I think is a cliche for a reason.

It's because in a lot of cases it works.

You know, I have a team member who uses more slang, speaks a certain way, and then I'll
meet them with that.

Whereas if I'm talking with somebody who's more formal, I'll probably match that a little
bit.

These are just really basic interpersonal communications things that

Help me to stay honest because I can say the honest things that I want to say.

But if I meet them in their communication style, it will probably land more effectively.

They'll feel seen and heard, will have a moment of connection.

And I think that's really important.

I am not afraid to challenge authority.

That is something that I think I've embraced quite a bit.

And so if a board member says something to me that I disagree with, I will express my
disagreement.

But I do it with.

some set of validation.

So I'll say something like, I hear that idea.

That's interesting.

I've heard that suggested before.

When I've tried it, here are the things that have happened.

Or what I'm learning in my research is that marketing isn't moving that direction.

And the advice from leading marketers in our space that I'm seeing is XYZ.

And so I find that to work really well in those types of environments.

And I've been complimented by some of our board members.

for bringing a point of view, for having different ideas, and for engaging in the
discussion.

When you are working with people who really want to grow, they expect to be challenged.

So I do think that being in the right type of environment is important.

And for people who are listening who want to behave that way, but find that they cannot
because of the culture that they're in, it isn't your

It is a result of the culture that you're in.

Having to change yourself for that is your decision.

If that's what feels right or if that's what you have to do because that's where you are
in your life, then absolutely do that.

I've been in that position before too.

I have come to a point in my career where I am pickier about that though.

And so now I look for spaces where it's safe to challenge because that's the only way that
you can advance anything, that you can advance a product, that you can advance a mission,

that you can advance your own career, that you can help grow the people that you're
leading.

You can't all just agree.

The other skill that I've had to develop is doing this really well remotely.

So I was working remotely long before the pandemic set in.

I started working remotely at SpatialKey, the second startup that I was with.

They were 100 % remote company, and that was back in 2015.

So that was their intention out of the gate, is that the company wouldn't be in an office.

They did such a good job building a healthy remote culture, so I got to cut my teeth there
before everybody was forced into this.

I hear a lot from people about how it's really hard to cultivate relationships remotely.

you know, I think it's coming back that we're in person more that people can go get that
coffee or the drink or go to dinner.

but I do think that it's really important to make the effort to get on a call with
somebody.

Like if you're having a problem with them, or if you're having a great time with them,
schedule time together to just hang out, even if it is to just have a conversation

virtually.

I do this with my team members a lot.

I also think the most important thing that you can do when you are in a space of conflict
is to take it out of Slack, take it out of email, take it out of text and bring it to a

live conversation.

Whether that's through video, it's a phone call or it's in person.

I've diffused a lot of tension with those choices and it's scary at first.

I don't love conflict either.

not a lot of people do.

but it dissipates so much faster when you make the decision to talk live.

Yes, absolutely.

And to your point, it's a choice.

It's a choice you're making to, again, dig into that courage, as you mentioned before, and
to move through it rather than sit in it and have to go back and forth where there's a lot

of misunderstandings that can happen on Slack and, and, you know, making sure you're using
the appropriate channels.

So I agree.

Tonality, being able to see somebody's facial expressions can absolutely change the
trajectory of a conversation in a split second.

Yeah, absolutely.

The facial expressions particularly.

I love reading body language.

I think it's an important thing to do.

Mine is probably misread a lot because I usually have a pretty straight face.

I'm most comfortable when my arms are crossed, but I promise I'm open.

Yeah, exactly.

Yeah, that's funny.

I actually had somebody tell me last night, they hoped I didn't play poker because I have
a very expressive face.

Not hiding my surprise.

It was a good conversation.

was nothing bad.

But I said, yeah, I've avoided Botox for that reason because I want people to know what
I'm thinking all the time, you know?

Let them see it and then I'll explain it too.

So I completely agree with you.

And you know, I think there's

Cheers!

Again, as I mentioned at the beginning in your journey, there were a couple of overarching
themes.

And one thing that I've heard in the way that you manage relationships and that you also
collaborate with your team members is a heavy focus on intentionality.

And I think that makes you an exceptional leader.

are sharing with the board of direct directions.

You're sharing with the board of directors your thoughts with the intention that it's in
the best interest of the company, with intention that it is helping.

everybody succeed together.

Rising tide lifts all boats, right?

You are meeting people, you're meeting your team members with intention to just get to
know each other and to carve out that time.

So all of those things are choices that you make and if you have the intention clear in
your mind, you understand what the strategy is, you understand how what you're saying

actually connects with the overall.

strategy, the direction, the objectives, whether that's for the quarter or for the year,
then yeah they're gonna be well received because you're being respectful about it.

And I just, I really wanted to highlight that because I think that's such an important
skill for leaders at any level is to whether you explicitly state it or the intention is

implied, it's important to have the intention in the back of your mind always as you're
having those conversations, right?

Mm-hmm, absolutely.

And then also important to understand your impact.

So I've been in situations where my intention not picked up, people don't get it, and it's
completely misunderstood.

And then I have to take a step back and go into that space of self-reflection and ask,
whoa, how did I make that impact?

What happened?

And how were my intention and my impact so far apart?

What's that gap?

And sometimes you have to ask people the question, the people who didn't understand you,
you have to ask them the question.

and so I think that's another important thing to consider when we do have the best of
intentions.

Sometimes they just don't land and, taking accountability for that is a really important
thing to do in order to grow and maintain relationships and continue on with a trusting

situation.

Absolutely, absolutely.

Couldn't agree more.

Whether it turns out positive or not so positively or positively, look at why something
landed as well and look to see how you can replicate that or why it you know, it did

resonate so well and that's how you understand at least one individual on your team better
and you can continue to foster that relationship.

Fantastic.

Well, Sarah, mean, we've covered a lot and I think there are a lot of lessons and a lot of
nuggets that people at any point in their journey and in their career growth will

completely be able to resonate with and will be able to take away and apply from your
lessons today.

Wondering if there's anything you'd like to leave the audience with, you know, whether
it's a key learning, one thing that they should focus on today or even one soft skill that

above all else you think is most important to cultivate in today's

and age.

I would say be patient with yourself, but don't let that slow you down.

Being patient with yourself doesn't mean that you have to lower your ambitions or stop
your clock in any way, unless that's what you choose to do.

but learning takes time and it takes mistakes.

And, that requires a level of patience that I have to remind myself to cultivate every
day.

Like, I am not great at that.

And it's something that I have to remind myself of constantly.

So in your career growth, be patient, be aware of what you can and cannot do, and then
trust yourself to know that you're going to get to where you want to be.

But you don't have to white knuckle it.

It's OK.

You can take a breath.

Fantastic.

And with that, I hope everybody takes a deep breath as they continue on their day.

And I just want to thank you so much for your time, your expertise, and I'm looking
forward to having some other leaders connect with you based on all of the information that

you've shared today.

So just high level, how can they reach you?

What's the best way for people to get in touch and to continue learning from you?

Yeah, would say follow me on LinkedIn, connect with me on LinkedIn.

That's where I'm going to spend most of my time.

And then over there, you'll discover that I will maybe start my Substack back up.

But at this point, LinkedIn is the place to find me.

Beautiful, beautiful.

Well, thank you again and looking forward to hopefully another conversation in the near
future.

Yeah, absolutely.

Thank you so much.