Beyond Titles with Kendra Johnson

All right, Sy, thank you so much for joining me today for this conversation and for giving
your time and your expertise.

Really excited to dive into your experiences and learn a little bit more about your
journey, which is a great place to start.

So why don't you give us a little rundown on what you're up to currently and what's led
you to this point in your career and just in life in general.

Sure.

And thank you very much for having me.

So I am currently the VP of marketing for a company called Tulip.

We're a B2B SaaS company that started out of Kitchener, Ontario in Canada, and we're now
sort of remote work from anywhere company.

I've been in this role for almost two years now.

And where I came from is very different, not your normal path to get to where I am here.

I usually get

some funny looks when I tell people that I started out my career in the theatre.

On stage, I went to a theatre school, lived in the UK for a number of years, worked in
theatre there, then moved back to Canada, continued to work in theatre for a little bit

and then made the choice to pivot my career and went back to school and got my MBA.

And that was at the Sauder School of Business in Vancouver, UBC.

And from there, I've been working in marketing ever since.

For the last, gosh, 13 years or so now, I started out in a large telecom company working
on of B2C marketing.

And then from there moved on, got into tech, B2B, specifically, and worked in marketing
there for another company in Vancouver and then moved to

about two years ago.

So a little bit of a funny way to start, but that's my story.

Yeah.

that, you know, coming out of school, you have ample opportunities to do whatever,
wherever the wind, go wherever the wind takes you and to do whatever you want.

So talk to me a little bit about that kind of TSN turning point.

What made you want to go and get your MBA and, you know, transition out of theatre?

Well, yeah, it is interesting that you say like the world is your oyster out of out of
school.

I would also say out of school, you have very limited information on what it's like to
actually be doing a job, right?

You've got all the schooling for it, but you've never actually done it.

And that was was big learning for me because I did all the schooling and had always wanted
to to to sort of be in that space and then got into it and very quickly was like, huh,

this isn't actually.

you

me.

I, you know, I saw very quickly, even when I was kind of in the latter stages of
schooling, I was just like, something doesn't feel right, but I'm going to give it a shot

because it's it's been something I've, I've thought about for so long, that I didn't want
to not do it and have regrets.

I realized very quickly that I didn't like the lack of control that I had on my own
career, I could do I could be the best at what I'm doing.

But for instance, like it's a visual medium.

And for instance, if you are up for a role and they've cast someone in the male lead and
you're up for the female lead, if the male lead is shorter than you physically, you're not

going to get the part, even if you're the best person for it, because they don't, they
want to have that.

It's a visual medium.

And it's things, little things like that, that really kind of got to me.

And I was just like, you know, there's so much outside of my control.

So I.

It was interesting.

I moved back to Canada and when I came back here, I was like, okay, I'm going to give this
another shot.

I'm going to keep at this for, I'm going to give myself a year.

And I did, and I worked in the theater.

I mean, it's a hard slog.

So you're working in the theater, then you're also between jobs doing things because it's
not a stable, long time type of a career.

But I was just like, I want to give this a fair shot and make sure that I'm, you know,

not doing this just because of the slog, the hardship of getting work and all that kind of
stuff.

I want to make sure that I'm making this decision because even the job itself is not
enough for me.

So I actually got a great role in a play.

It was a two person role.

And we kind of alternated roles every other night.

So was literally playing the entire play in one day versus the next.

And I thought, you know, this is it.

This is kind of like the

is if this is not enough, then it's not enough.

And at the end of it, I said, you know what, that's fun, but it's not enough.

And that was the turning point for me.

And it was kind of what I learned from that was the importance of leaving on a high versus
leaving on a low.

Because I look back on that and I say, you know what, I really did give it a shot.

I had really good work come my way and it still wasn't enough.

Because you could always make the argument of

Well, didn't really like you could have these all these what ifs that come later on.

I don't have any of that now.

I'm fine.

You know, I look back and I'm like, I have no regrets with my decision.

And so I, at that point, I was kind of looking around and did a career assessment, I think
one of those career assessments and the idea of an MBA popped up and I had had some, some

jobs working in sort of a managerial capacity, working with people and I loved it.

And that was kind of my first tip off of like, maybe I should try this.

And then I did this career assessment thing and it suggested maybe, you going back to
school.

And that's when I started looking in the MBA.

And I was in Vancouver at the time and wanted to stay in Vancouver and got into the the
solder program.

I like to say I kind of all the weird kid boxes because I was a woman and there's less
women usually on at least there was when I went to school, less women in the the programs

and like

who comes from theater then does their MBA and they always want to have, you know, like
they're a little bit of diversity.

that was, yeah, that sort of set me on my way.

fantastic.

And I love that you gave, think leaving on a high is such an important lesson and
something that many people don't consider.

And so I love that you gave it, you you set the benchmarks and the criteria for yourself
of if this still isn't enough, this is what this role would be consistently on the best of

days.

And if this isn't enough, it's time to go.

and also giving yourself that year mark.

And I think that's something too, that is really important for people to consider because
otherwise it's those what ifs and you know, maybe you kick, yeah, you kick a change down

the road and then you end up 20 years in not doing something that you love because you've
just said, well, when it gets better, when it gets better, but that year mark, holding

yourself to that is really important.

I think it musters up all of your courage, your energy, and your focus really to see
something through for a year and then make your decision at the end.

So I think that's good.

think it's also helpful to, because for me, I have a very busy mind and it's a good way to
sort of quiet it a little bit and saying, okay, I'm still in the year.

We gave ourselves that there's a deadline.

I don't have to be thinking about this now.

Let's wait until like, I've got a time where I can just actually sit down and assess and
really think about it.

And it helps, it does help the focus in that way.

Absolutely, close some of mental tabs.

Yeah, yeah.

I'm sure many people can relate to that.

Myself included.

okay, so career assessment to MBA.

You get into the MBA and now you've come out and you're in marketing.

You know, I think one of the things that is really interesting is the transferable skills
that many of us don't realize we possess, that we carry into, whether that's a new career

or a new role, or even perhaps a job break.

We gain so many transferable skills during those times that we can then reenter the
marketplace with.

So talk to me a little bit about first year experience in theatre and some of the
transferable skills that you brought from, whether it was school or from, you know,

understanding that, kind of riding that high.

and lows of that career into your current work and how those have shaped who you are
today.

Mm-hmm, sure.

So I mean, I guess the first thing I would say in theater, it's your job is to work with
people.

the product is you interacting with another person, right?

So the value of, you know, collaboration and trust.

Like there's all these, this is why there's all these trust exercises when you think about
like the theater school kids and doing like the falling into each other's arms and making

sure they catch you kind of thing.

Because you have to have trust in order for you to actually have a proper

like the best working relationship you can have.

And you have to find a way to, I'm not even gonna say enjoy working with everybody that
you work with, because it's hard to, sometimes there's people who have different styles

and they're just, but you still have to work with them and you have to find a way to still
be collaborative and have that trust.

And because in the theater, if you don't, you can still make it work, but it takes so much
energy out of,

your performance and everything if you're working up against like, hate this person or
like, we're just not working together.

So that's been really, really like a very transferable skill for me, I would say.

And being able to, and like to this day, I think one of the things that I often bring to
the table is how we work with, how I'll work with myself, work with people across the

organization in different functional areas, but also how to teach my team how to, right?

And not because there is this tendency, either through fear or what have you to sort of
silo yourself and just do what you're doing and not maybe be a little afraid to ask other

people because you might think it's not like you should know the answer or you're not
really doing your job if you're if you're getting help kind of thing.

And I think what I've learned from coming from a profession where you, you absolutely have
to like the more you you engage with other people and

figure out common ground, the better things are.

That's really taught me the value of, you know, finding common ground with someone and
finding your people.

And I think my time at IntelliCom, where you're working in a large organization really
helped me with that, because that's a lot about navigating internally and figuring out the

right people to talk to.

That's one of the keys to working in those large organizations.

yeah, collaboration for sure.

I mean, also, think like public speaking is which is a passion of mine is something that's
been really helpful.

Being able to get up in front of people and speak with conviction.

Obviously, you're doing that in theater and you're up on stage or in front of a classroom
in school.

And you just have you get practice at it and the value of just doing that over and over
and over again is so important.

But just understanding how

you know, what it means because when you're again in the theater space, one of the lessons
that I learned was it's it's not really about when you're when you're talking to somebody,

it's not actually about you at all.

It's you have to shoot that energy out of you and think like I want to make you feel X.

I want to make you feel happy or joyful or concerned or whatever.

And if you put your energy into that person and into that intention, it actually helps the
nerves tremendously because it is no longer about you.

It also really helps with your ability to tell the story and to communicate.

So that's really been really, really helpful.

More so than I thought, that was a pretty surprising thing.

was like, okay, I'm actually learning quite a lot from my theater background.

I wasn't expecting to pull in as much as I did.

So yeah, those are definitely some really transferable skills for me.

Absolutely.

Pardon me.

mean, collaboration wholeheartedly.

then, yes, the, the ability, I think obviously to present.

And then you said something also really interesting, which was to, you know, to put
essentially you're, learning empathy in, in my opinion, right?

You're learning how to be empathetic by sharing a feeling or wanting to put that feeling
on someone else so that they, your intention is felt.

And the same goes for providing feedback when you're a leader.

You want to make sure that your intention is felt.

You want somebody, obviously, to feel like they're being supported, that you're providing
feedback with the best of intentions to help them grow.

And if you're so focused on yourself, then it's not going to be received in the way that
you want.

So I can completely see how that crosses barriers, definitely, into the work you're doing
now.

helps it.

It also helps when you're talking with like with leadership and executive, right?

Like it made me.

It made me realize like when when I'm trying to get something done or approved or what
have you, who am I talking to?

What do they think?

Like all of a sudden you're thinking about them and saying and you can start being
strategic about it and saying what are they?

What are they?

What do they know about this issue that I'm talking to them about?

What was the last conversation they had about this issue that I'm talking about?

Who was it with?

What are their feelings on it now?

What are their concerns?

What are you know?

And then if you start thinking about that, you can address them head on and having that
kind of that view of what they might be thinking and feeling.

And then you're right.

Also, like with your team, if you're giving feedback, thinking through like where their
heads might be at and how something might be received, as opposed to like being very

concerned about how you come across.

It's a very different energy.

I've fallen back into, you know, thinking about where how I come across and it doesn't
ever go as well.

So yeah, absolutely.

It really is about empathy and thinking about what they might be feeling.

yeah.

And then tethering it what they care about too, right?

What are their priorities?

Why does this matter for them?

So I, yeah.

All of those are very important tools, no matter who you're engaging with.

If you need to collaborate with someone, I think that is the absolute key.

And you've just turned that lock for so many people.

So that's really, really helpful.

And I would imagine that in knowing this information and for yourself in moving through
then the marketing space and in management, obviously that's something that you're

passionate about as you've alluded to.

And as we can tell, you're passionate

the growth of others.

But I would imagine that also having those skills and then imparting them onto your team
as well helps with retention and productivity within your team, right?

The way that they communicate and collaborate together and with those outside of your kind
of immediate nucleus.

Collaboration, I'm guessing, is obviously a big part of the work you do as a team right
now.

is.

Yeah, absolutely.

And it is interesting how often we don't collaborate.

And we just don't think about like, hey, maybe somebody in the company knows about this
and knows it an angle to this.

It's happened so many times that I'm like, there is something to that.

And I do think it might, just kind of stems from maybe a place of fear.

It's also like,

more challenging in a remote environment too.

Like, you know, in a physical office space, you might overhear someone talking about
something and say like, I actually need to learn a little bit more about that if you do

know something and you wouldn't in a remote space.

So yeah, absolutely.

It's something that I think it's an active area of focus for me.

And I think the team, like our teams are always just so much better when we engage with
others.

And when you find your

find your people who like know a whole lot about what you need help with and also are
willing to help with it.

Obviously then there's sort of like, you also want to make sure there's a give and take
and make sure that we can be helpful to them as much as possible so that they can continue

to be nice to us and give us their expertise.

But that's definitely like a big part of my approach when I lead a team for sure.

Absolutely.

And it sounds like in order to do that, I mean, you've mentioned trust being one of the
cornerstones of effective leadership and, you know, in order to create the space where

people are.

feel safe collaborating and feel safe bringing up whether that's concerns or potential
barriers or even some of the good things.

Maybe they just don't feel comfortable totally speaking up but that requires a healthy
degree of transparency and honesty both at the leadership level and then cultivating it

throughout you know the team level for their peers.

So in thinking about that

about transparency and honesty, how have you cultivated an inclusive and supportive
workplace culture with those two things in mind?

Mm hmm.

I mean, I think it's really just about modeling it, right?

Like, I can't ask someone to be transparent with me if I'm not being transparent with
them.

And that often means, you know, saying like, okay, here, I was part of this conversation,
this is what was said, just so you for nothing else, if there's going to be a change in

priorities or change in a project that they're working on.

I'll because I'd found in my past,

especially again, working at the thing of my time in a large organization where things can
change a lot and you have no idea why because there's so many different levels and so many

different stakeholders that are involved in initiatives that you might be running, but
then they'll have a say and then everything changes.

That it helped me tremendously when someone said, okay, here's a conversation that's going
on between these two leads over there and this one isn't buying it.

Your lead is trying to fight for it, but I don't know what's going to happen kind of
thing.

I mean, there's something to be said for making sure the work still gets done and you're
stalling progress because people are just waiting.

You kind of have to find that balance, but I don't think it's a matter of not expressing
what's happening at the executive level, especially if there are potential impacts to your

team.

Also, if someone on your team is passionate about something and really wants to see a
project through,

and you're saying, this person is not buying it, that might be an opportunity for your
team to say, like, I want to get in front of this.

Let me have some time with them and I can talk them through this.

And that's a great opportunity for them to get some visibility with leadership and say
their piece and also transfer information that might be lost in the mix.

And the mix sometimes could be me.

I fully acknowledge that I don't have all the information that my team.

will have and so I'll try to get them in front of the right person so I'm not missing
anything.

But I can't do that unless I'm explaining what's happening.

that's first and foremost is I have to model the way if I want my team to be transparent.

I I think otherwise, if it is about, if you get into more, maybe harder conversations,

someone wants to have with you as their lead.

And I understand that hard conversations can be hard.

I've been in that position.

Like, how do I say that like, I'm overworked or my plate is full and there's too much
going on and not look bad or whatever.

I've been in that situation and it's hard.

So like, it's just about asking the question and saying like how, you know, and asking it
often, right?

Like if you ask it once and then forget about it,

doesn't really count.

have to ask people repeatedly.

doing a check in with that with with them, like how are things going?

Yeah.

And then I mean, I think the other thing is, even just just being human, you know, like if
I'm if I have a bad day, if I'm having a bad day, or, you know, really, you know, mentally

foggy, because, you know, for whatever reason, I'm gonna let the I'm gonna let the team
know just be like, guys, bear with me, I'm having a I'm having a day, I'm gonna get there,

but I'm having a day and it's

I think being human like that is just really helpful.

Yeah, and there's a relatability too, right?

mean, nobody wants a manager that's a robot and that certainly does not give you the
opportunity to then feel like you can have days where you don't have it all together.

And I feel like that's become more and more.

acceptable and I am doing air quotes when I say acceptable these days because it should
always be acceptable.

At the end of the day, we are humans working with other humans and that's something that
AI can never replace.

So I love that you share those those pieces with your team and they I'm sure they respect
that and they appreciate that and it's helpful for them when they're having a bad day or

something isn't going right, but they have more comfortability coming to you and that also
allows you to get ahead of any potential catastrophes from stress or overwhelm or fear or

whatever that might be.

absolutely.

Because often things will come up and I will have no idea, no idea at all.

And in fact, sometimes we'll think the opposite.

You know, like there was an example where I gave my team member a project that I thought
would be exciting.

And then because we had that rapport, they were able to come to me and say, like, I'm
feeling really overwhelmed and this is not, this project is not helping.

I said, okay, taking it off your plate, you won't do it.

I had no idea.

I was completely out to lunch with that.

so all the more reason that I needed to hear from my team member that said that I can't
handle this right now because it wasn't an essential project.

So it was a very easy thing for me to say, okay, I'm taking it off.

So yeah.

Yeah, definitely.

I always say too, I mean, you see basically a couple of hours of somebody's day.

So you have no idea.

We're not mind readers.

You can't read your team's mind.

And one of the interesting things is that, you know, for any of the leaders who might be
feeling that fear and don't want to say that their plate is too full or they're

overwhelmed, I'm pretty sure that no matter whether it's C-suite, a manager, or even a
collaborator would rather have you say,

I'm overwhelmed and I don't think I can do this to the quality it deserves to be given,
rather than kind of half-assing something and not either putting the time and the

dedication into it or missing something and then that's a mess that needs to be cleaned up
after.

It's really about being proactive in those conversations too, right?

100%.

I know I got I had really good, good guidance from how to handle that myself when I was
overwhelmed early days.

And so I thought, how do I put this?

How do I say this without coming across?

Like, I'm, you know, like, how do I provide a solution here?

So it's not just giving them a problem to solve.

And it was actually my mom, who had suggested she was, it said, like, you know, why don't
you put things in priority order that you're working on and saying, here's what I think my

priorities are.

If that's the case, I can't get to this last item.

Does that align with you?

And I did it and I was wrong.

The priorities were wrong.

So thank God I did.

And they swapped things around and I was like, this is the thing that was driving me
crazy.

It's not as important.

I had no idea.

And so I dropped it.

And then what was also interesting is this was early in my career when I was still at the
telecom company.

I was recognized that month for one of the top performers, which I hadn't actually been.

And I think it was because I put it out there and I was like, all this stuff is going on.

And I got it in front of them.

And I mean, maybe they were also doing it as a way to sort of make me feel better about,
about things, but I got on their radar in a way that was, that ended up being kind of

positive.

So that's just a good little trick for if you're feeling like you don't want to present a
problem without a solution, but you're really overwhelmed, just.

put it on paper and say like this, this needs to fall off.

Is that correct?

And so it's an easier solve for your lead to do kind of thing.

Yeah, don't give them more work, but lay it out.

And then yeah, that shows initiative as well.

And your mother's very wise, very, very wise.

She was a lead herself, so think she got the, she understood the need to, you know, come
with solutions and not problems kind of thing.

Yes, yes, exactly.

And I think one of the interesting things too is that when people hear that, especially if
they're first time people leaders or even just first time in the workforce and they hear,

I need to come with solutions, they think they have to have it fully flushed out.

But your example, right?

And your example is a perfect demonstration of you just need to have a list on paper to
say, here's what I'm working on.

You need to have it started to show that you've put some thought and consideration into
it.

You don't need to have a fully baked plan with a budget and

a five-year milestone checklist.

That's not what people are looking for.

They're just looking for a little bit of give and they'll give a little bit in return.

Absolutely, absolutely.

Now, I want to talk about another side of you and your career growth and journey and that
is your a couple of breaks that you've taken for maternity leave and

I'd love to dive into that and chat a little bit more about that and some of the perhaps
the significant milestones that came along with that and some of the learnings that came

out of both taking maternity leave and then coming back and what that's looked like for
you as a leader.

gosh.

Yeah.

I mean, I mean, the punchline is my career was wholeheartedly impacted by my having
children.

And in ways that I was not expecting it to.

Yeah, it's made a huge difference.

mean, first of all, it's.

much changes when when you become a mom, I mean, you know, and

before I became a mother, I had no idea.

People would say things to me and, you know, about like, maybe you don't want to come back
to work.

And I would be like, what are you talking about?

And then you have a kid and you're like, oh, I get it now.

Everything changes.

Your priorities go all over the place.

For me, my level of ambition changed.

I realized that it was not, that whole thinking that you don't have to be on a constant
climb.

You can just take a pause.

and just ease off the gas pedal in terms of your level of ambition was huge for me because
I did.

And in fact, when I came back to work and I was working at a place that it was not
supportive for me and it wasn't working.

wasn't, you know, I was having issues with childcare.

For instance, my daughter was in a day home.

We couldn't get her into group care.

So it was a day home.

If she got sick, my day home provider was like, sorry, she's got to stay home for the
week.

I couldn't get time off work.

So I had a sick child and was sick myself and was trying to launch a campaign at the same
time.

And it was bananas.

And I quit outright.

I didn't have a backup plan.

I think I kind of, this might sound a little like woo woo, but it was like when I was in
the middle of it, there was a knock on my door.

And it was a check for some money that my grandmother had left.

Not a whole lot of money.

Not very much at all, but it was enough to float me for a couple of months.

And it was happening right, it happened right when I was in the depths of this.

And I thought, okay, I'm gonna take this as a sign.

I think I'm out.

I need to pause.

And I swear, it's the best thing I did.

I have absolutely no regrets.

Holy smokes.

A lot of people in the company were surprised and a lot of folks came forward and said, I
really respect what you're doing.

And a lot of folks were like, wow, you don't have another job, you're just quitting?

Yep, I am, this is not working for me.

And I took a little bit of a break and it was wonderful.

It was absolutely wonderful.

Went back to my network, started chatting with people.

told them kind of what I got clear on what I wanted.

had a coach at the time that I still work with and was chatting with my coach a lot,
chatting with my network and through my network found my next role.

And it was in tech.

That was when I made the switch over to tech.

And I inadvertently, even though I felt like I needed to pause and pull back,

I had promoted myself and gotten a pay jump in the meantime.

that's the part that was really unexpected for me.

I was just like, you it actually worked out very, very well in that regard.

So that kind of set me on a journey that truly I wanted to take that anyways.

was, I think I got into a big company and you can get sort of seduced by all of the
internal movement possible, but I'd never intended to be there as long as I did anyways.

So it kind of forced

a move that I wanted to make anyway, just in a lot more abrupt fashion than I thought it
would.

And yeah, it set me on a different path.

yeah, it was a lot, I found myself in an environment that was a lot more manageable for
where I was.

So, and then I had another turn in my, I have two kids, my second mat leave.

brought about another change, which also ended up in a jump in my career.

So I don't think that's typical, but I don't think unfortunately having to change roles
because of.

like either because you have been on that leave and were away for a while or because
you're back and your priorities have changed, that instigating a change in moving

companies, I don't think that's uncommon.

Yeah, yeah, which is...

which is not great.

It's not something that there's a playbook for, unfortunately, in terms of how to deal
with that as a mother, especially when you're now also, you have another job, which takes

a lot of your time and your energy.

It is a job.

It's a lot of, it's a lot more than a job, but it's also a job.

So you are working, this is all happening.

This change is all happening when you are also giving your time and your energy to
something else.

So it's a very, very challenging time.

But it got me to new and different places and sort of found something that worked better
for me.

Yeah, and thank you.

Thank you so much for sharing.

think that's, you know, to your point, I don't think it's uncommon, but I also don't think
it's spoken about that much.

And that's why I'm,

grateful that you've shared your experiences because if that can at least provide solace
or a comfort to one other person out there to know that they're not alone, they're not the

anomaly going through this, then I think that that is entirely worth it because it's not
often talked about and I don't understand why because it's something that's...

That's natural that many of us go through.

Some do, some choose not to.

And I mean, for myself, I'm not that at that point yet personally, but it's in the
potential plans and starting to think now what would that look like?

You know, as a business owner, how does, how do things change and how do my ambitions to
your point change?

Because your ambitions get refocused and put on something else.

So it's really interesting.

it's, yeah, and I mean, and I'm glad you asked that question, because you're absolutely
right.

I knew nothing about all these challenges until I became a mother.

I now have like a community of women through like LinkedIn or through just my own network,
and we've gone through it.

So, but it's staggering to hear the stories.

Like I've got a good friend of mine who used to be my lead, and thankfully she was very,
very supportive.

Kind of the same as you.

She was like, I'm not there yet, but I do want to have a family.

So was very conscious of that in terms of when I was going through and I was was I was
struggling getting pregnant the second time.

And that also is something that really impacts your work and how you're there
professionally.

And being able to have someone to actually talk to about that kind of stuff is is like was
was very was meant a whole lot to me at the time.

But she's now

started a company herself that's all about helping women who are going on mat leave and
transitioning back into work.

And I mean, the stories that, and it's come out of this story where she was let go when
she was pregnant.

And the number of stories that have come out from other women who have said that the exact
same thing has happened to them is remarkable.

And a lot of women unfortunately can't talk about it because if there was like legal stuff
that came about it, you usually have to sign a piece of paper.

Right.

But you're absolutely right.

I mentioned that all to say that it's very prevalent in terms of changes in your career
and having a lack of support around that.

That can lead to termination, absolutely to burnout, to women just deciding to move
companies at the very least.

And you're right.

I knew nothing about it before I became a mother, nothing.

Yeah, yeah, I can imagine.

mean, that's the point I'm at, right?

And I think...

It's, as you mentioned, there are now resources that exist and although they can't fully
prepare somebody for that, or perhaps they can, as to the point about your past lead, I

mean, she created a business, so obviously she has the resources to help with that.

But in terms of network, even just the supportive check-in can go a very long way, right?

Making sure that everybody is okay.

And also, I think one thing that...

I've noticed with a lot of our, you the clients that we work with is don't assume if
someone's having a bad day that you know why, or if they're having a string of bad days

that you know why, because you don't know what's going on.

You don't know what's going on in their personal life.

And rather than assume anything about performance or about, you know, anything personally,
a check-in is a perfect way to offer support and to find out what's going on.

If there is anything you can do to support in that moment.

yeah.

often gets overlooked.

No, you're right.

It is a simple thing, but it means a whole lot.

think there was like, checked in with me once and I just bawled crying because I had, just
because something was happening on my journey that was not easy to deal with and she had

no idea.

had no idea.

And I wouldn't have said anything if she hadn't asked.

So absolutely.

Right, right, exactly.

It comes back to being an empathetic leader.

Full circle.

fantastic.

I I think that you've given us a lot of lessons, a lot of learnings, and a lot of things
for people to really sink their teeth in and take away as to how to navigate, first of

all,

changes in environment and changes in team structure, changes in focus at the end of the
day.

And so one final question for you is if you could impart one critical soft skill to any
emerging or newer people leaders, what would it be and why?

I would probably use this opportunity to plug the book Crucial Conversations.

my gosh, like the number, like people working together don't always, like there's often
just interpersonal conflict and it's often because of miscommunication and

misinterpretation.

And that book is so good at just teaching how to have a hard conversation with someone
when there is.

tension, right?

Tension should exist, should exist between certain roles.

Like it should be healthy tension.

I work in marketing, there should be healthy tension between me and sales.

There should be healthy tension between me and, and, and finance.

But when there's unhealthy tension, and it's, you know, people are starting to take things
personally, or have you, it happens a lot.

And especially also in a, in a remote environment, so much is lost in how we communicate,
because there's the lack of body language that you can't read and all that kind of stuff.

The number of times I have had this conversation with people in terms of just coaching,
like, this is how you have this conversation.

And I've done it myself and it's, it's been invaluable.

And the amount of energy that could get sucked up with dealing with all these feelings and
interpretations, which sometimes can just be flat out wrong.

Sometimes aren't, but sometimes some...

often are, is incredible.

And the release that happens after you have had a hard conversation in a positive in a
constructive way, being like addressing it head on, but not in an emotional way, taking

the emotion out of it and focusing on like the facts, how you've interpreted them and how
you're feeling about it, and then giving benefit of the doubt.

That's like basically the formula.

It's it's come up so much.

And it and it

The number of times it's come up and then the amount of energy it sucks up and then
releases that to me has been like probably like one of the things I would I would say is

like been the biggest learning for me and which is again just how you deal with people.

Yes.

fantastic.

Yeah, I love that.

And it's I mean, you're constantly going to be in conflict in some form of conflict
because conflict can be positive, just like you've mentioned.

I love the way you put this healthy tension, healthy tension exists and not all tension is
is combative.

Not all tension needs a large solution, but it can simply boil down to a conflict, a
resetting of expectations, an understanding of the other person.

in and as you said to give somebody the benefit of the doubt as well.

Amazing, amazing.

I thank you so so much for taking the time today for chatting with me.

I really appreciate it and just wondering where can people find you?

How can they connect with you?

Sure, find me on LinkedIn.

I'm probably the only Cy of O'Neill out there.

If not one of the few, please feel free to look me up on LinkedIn.

Yeah, would love to connect.

Beautiful.

Thank you again and looking forward to future conversations.

Great, thank you so much.

Okay.

Good.

How it should be just finishing uploading, but how do you feel?